diff --git a/copyparty/ftpd.py b/copyparty/ftpd.py
index e67b822d..c957782e 100644
--- a/copyparty/ftpd.py
+++ b/copyparty/ftpd.py
@@ -271,7 +271,7 @@ class FtpFs(AbstractedFS):
 
         vp = join(self.cwd, path).lstrip("/")
         try:
-            self.hub.up2k.handle_rm(self.uname, self.h.cli_ip, [vp], [])
+            self.hub.up2k.handle_rm(self.uname, self.h.cli_ip, [vp], [], False)
         except Exception as ex:
             raise FSE(str(ex))
 
diff --git a/copyparty/httpcli.py b/copyparty/httpcli.py
index fb226913..a8a316aa 100644
--- a/copyparty/httpcli.py
+++ b/copyparty/httpcli.py
@@ -1152,18 +1152,9 @@ class HttpCli(object):
         dst = self.headers["destination"]
         dst = re.sub("^https?://[^/]+", "", dst).lstrip()
         dst = unquotep(dst)
-        if not self._mv(self.vpath, dst):
+        if not self._mv(self.vpath, dst.lstrip("/")):
             return False
 
-        # up2k only cares about files and removes all empty folders;
-        # clients naturally expect empty folders to survive a rename
-        vn, rem = self.asrv.vfs.get(dst, self.uname, False, False)
-        dabs = vn.canonical(rem)
-        try:
-            bos.makedirs(dabs)
-        except:
-            pass
-
         return True
 
     def _applesan(self) -> bool:
@@ -3054,7 +3045,7 @@ class HttpCli(object):
         ret = self.gen_tree(top, dst)
         if self.is_vproxied:
             parents = self.args.R.split("/")
-            for parent in parents[::-1]:
+            for parent in reversed(parents):
                 ret = {"k%s" % (parent,): ret, "a": []}
 
         zs = json.dumps(ret)
@@ -3193,7 +3184,9 @@ class HttpCli(object):
         nlim = int(self.uparam.get("lim") or 0)
         lim = [nlim, nlim] if nlim else []
 
-        x = self.conn.hsrv.broker.ask("up2k.handle_rm", self.uname, self.ip, req, lim)
+        x = self.conn.hsrv.broker.ask(
+            "up2k.handle_rm", self.uname, self.ip, req, lim, False
+        )
         self.loud_reply(x.get())
         return True
 
@@ -3210,7 +3203,7 @@ class HttpCli(object):
         # x-www-form-urlencoded (url query part) uses
         # either + or %20 for 0x20 so handle both
         dst = unquotep(dst.replace("+", " "))
-        return self._mv(self.vpath, dst)
+        return self._mv(self.vpath, dst.lstrip("/"))
 
     def _mv(self, vsrc: str, vdst: str) -> bool:
         if not self.can_move:
diff --git a/copyparty/smbd.py b/copyparty/smbd.py
index ac5cdab4..d0ee688d 100644
--- a/copyparty/smbd.py
+++ b/copyparty/smbd.py
@@ -261,7 +261,7 @@ class SMB(object):
             yeet("blocked delete (no-del-acc): " + vpath)
 
         vpath = vpath.replace("\\", "/").lstrip("/")
-        self.hub.up2k.handle_rm(LEELOO_DALLAS, "1.7.6.2", [vpath], [])
+        self.hub.up2k.handle_rm(LEELOO_DALLAS, "1.7.6.2", [vpath], [], False)
 
     def _utime(self, vpath: str, times: tuple[float, float]) -> None:
         if not self.args.smbw:
diff --git a/copyparty/up2k.py b/copyparty/up2k.py
index 0e6c74a3..a291c647 100644
--- a/copyparty/up2k.py
+++ b/copyparty/up2k.py
@@ -384,7 +384,7 @@ class Up2k(object):
                         if vp:
                             fvp = "%s/%s" % (vp, fvp)
 
-                        self._handle_rm(LEELOO_DALLAS, "", fvp, [])
+                        self._handle_rm(LEELOO_DALLAS, "", fvp, [], True)
                         nrm += 1
 
                 if nrm:
@@ -2897,7 +2897,9 @@ class Up2k(object):
             except:
                 pass
 
-    def handle_rm(self, uname: str, ip: str, vpaths: list[str], lim: list[int]) -> str:
+    def handle_rm(
+        self, uname: str, ip: str, vpaths: list[str], lim: list[int], rm_up: bool
+    ) -> str:
         n_files = 0
         ok = {}
         ng = {}
@@ -2906,7 +2908,7 @@ class Up2k(object):
                 self.log("hit delete limit of {} files".format(lim[1]), 3)
                 break
 
-            a, b, c = self._handle_rm(uname, ip, vp, lim)
+            a, b, c = self._handle_rm(uname, ip, vp, lim, rm_up)
             n_files += a
             for k in b:
                 ok[k] = 1
@@ -2920,7 +2922,7 @@ class Up2k(object):
         return "deleted {} files (and {}/{} folders)".format(n_files, iok, iok + ing)
 
     def _handle_rm(
-        self, uname: str, ip: str, vpath: str, lim: list[int]
+        self, uname: str, ip: str, vpath: str, lim: list[int], rm_up: bool
     ) -> tuple[int, list[str], list[str]]:
         self.db_act = time.time()
         try:
@@ -3027,16 +3029,22 @@ class Up2k(object):
                 if xad:
                     runhook(self.log, xad, abspath, vpath, "", uname, 0, 0, ip, 0, "")
 
-        ok: list[str] = []
-        ng: list[str] = []
         if is_dir:
             ok, ng = rmdirs(self.log_func, scandir, True, atop, 1)
+        else:
+            ok = ng = []
 
-        ok2, ng2 = rmdirs_up(os.path.dirname(atop), ptop)
+        if rm_up:
+            ok2, ng2 = rmdirs_up(os.path.dirname(atop), ptop)
+        else:
+            ok2 = ng2 = []
 
         return n_files, ok + ok2, ng + ng2
 
     def handle_mv(self, uname: str, svp: str, dvp: str) -> str:
+        if svp == dvp or dvp.startswith(svp + "/"):
+            raise Pebkac(400, "mv: cannot move parent into subfolder")
+
         svn, srem = self.asrv.vfs.get(svp, uname, True, False, True)
         svn, srem = svn.get_dbv(srem)
         sabs = svn.canonical(srem, False)
@@ -3090,8 +3098,21 @@ class Up2k(object):
 
             curs.clear()
 
-        rmdirs(self.log_func, scandir, True, sabs, 1)
-        rmdirs_up(os.path.dirname(sabs), svn.realpath)
+        rm_ok, rm_ng = rmdirs(self.log_func, scandir, True, sabs, 1)
+
+        for zsl in (rm_ok, rm_ng):
+            for ap in reversed(zsl):
+                if not ap.startswith(sabs):
+                    raise Pebkac(500, "mv_d: bug at {}, top {}".format(ap, sabs))
+
+                rem = ap[len(sabs) :].replace(os.sep, "/").lstrip("/")
+                vp = vjoin(dvp, rem)
+                try:
+                    dvn, drem = self.asrv.vfs.get(vp, uname, False, True)
+                    bos.mkdir(dvn.canonical(drem))
+                except:
+                    pass
+
         return "k"
 
     def _mv_file(
diff --git a/copyparty/util.py b/copyparty/util.py
index 94371441..5247a70e 100644
--- a/copyparty/util.py
+++ b/copyparty/util.py
@@ -2270,7 +2270,7 @@ def rmdirs(
     dirs = [os.path.join(top, x) for x in dirs]
     ok = []
     ng = []
-    for d in dirs[::-1]:
+    for d in reversed(dirs):
         a, b = rmdirs(logger, scandir, lstat, d, depth + 1)
         ok += a
         ng += b